--- Open ---

Good evening Columbia and welcome to the Don Stamper Show. My name is Greg Rennier and I'm filling in for Don this evening.

Tonight we're going to talk about a subject that I am deeply passionate about, and that topic is education. As a father of three boys, and the holder of a PhD, I know how important education can be in achieving your life goals. Without education, we severely limit our options. Education can be the key to happiness, and is certainly the best chance that low-income citizens have to move up the socio-economic ladder.

Unfortunately, and realize this is a blatant editorial on my part, I get the feeling that our educators care more about sustaining their failing system than they do about educating the children. They talk a good game, but their behavior tells you otherwise. I've learned a long time ago that you judge people on their behavior and not their words.

We'll have two guests tonight. In the second half of the show, we're going to speak with Columbia's favorite activist, or at least my favorite activist, Mr. Henry Lane. As you know, Henry has some strong opinions regarding the Columbia school system and we'll discuss his views at the bottom of the hour.

Right now, however, we are going to speak with Marcus Winters, who may or may not have the same thoughts and opinions as I do, but I'll let him speak for himself. Marcus is a Research Associate at the Manhattan Institute's Education Research Office. The Manhattan Institute for Public Policy is one of the premier think tanks regarding educational issues, and it is a pleasure to have him with us this evening.

Marcus, welcome to the show.

Before we get started, let me give out the phone numbers if you want to speak with Marcus. Give us a call at ....

--- Marcus Winters ---

Questions - Warm-up
• Marcus, why don't you tell us a little about the Manhattan Institute's Education Research Office and your role? purpose, focus, research or anecdotal, accolades (e.g., Supreme Court decisions), his interests

Questions - high-stakes testing
• I know that your institution has conducted some ground-breaking work in high-stakes testing. We recently got the results of our MAP tests here in MO -- the Missouri Assessment Program -- and the results were less than stellar. Why don't you describe some of the work that the Manhattan Institute has conducted on this issue?
- these type of tests work, they measure ability, but they only work in conjunction with sanctions
• Columbia MO was a focus of one of your studies. Tell us about that study and what you found.
- 9% of population represented
- found a high correlation between high and low stake tests, and only a moderate correlation on year-to-year score gains
- in Columbia, .82 correlation on tests, but a week negative correlation on year-to-year score gains -- what does this mean?
- conclusion - these tests are reflective of overall ability, and if they do teach the test, they're teaching in ways to positively impact overall performance

Questions - school choice / vouchers
• What are the impacts of vouchers on education? I know that you've conducted some recent research in Florida, and would this be applicable to Missouri?
- low-performing schools improve in direct proportion to the challenge they face from voucher programs - best where vouchers exist, moderate where there's a threat, and least-to-none where no threat
- why should we believe this research over the stance of teacher's unions and others? what makes this more definitive?
- bottom line -- did the schools improve because of the stigma of failing grades or the threat of voucher competition? they found that once the threat of vouchers goes away, so does the incentive for failing schools to improve

• Do you have any specific examples of what these competing schools changed, or is your research at the result level?

• One of the main challenges to vouchers is the potential impact on those children remaining in public schools. Your colleagues Jay Greene and Greg Forster have studied this. Can you comment on their findings?
- Milwaukee and San Antonio
- when controlling for race, income, etc...public schools exposed to competition showed more improvement in student test scores than did other public schools
- are these results definitive? more research planned b/c this could really begin to destroy much of the anti-voucher argument?
- Comment -- free choice and economic principles once again lift all ships

Questions - charter schools
• One thing I like about the Manhattan Institute is the quality of the research. You take great pains to weed out extraneous variables and get to the truth. You recently applied this philosophy to charter schools and was able to compare apples-to-apples. Tell us a little bit about this research.
- 2700 charter schools
- hard to get a fair comparison because charter schools target specific populations
- this research compared test scores at charter schools and regular public schools serving similar student populations
- over a one-year period, charter schools outperformed regular schools on math and reading tests
- results were strongest in Florida and Texas -- any thoughts as to why?
• was MO studied?

Questions - other issues
• class size - does it matter? helpful or harmful?

• is this all just a money problem?

• article in Post-Dispatch: Many public school graduates aren't college ready

• graduation rates - tracking higher/lower? what can be done about it? what strategies have worked?

• future research at MI

Goodbye

Marcus, it's been great having you on the show. Why don't you tell the listening audience where they can find out more about your research?

We're going to take a short break to engage in some evil capitalist activity, but after the break we're going to speak with Henry Lane, probably the most polarizing person in Columbia. You’re listening to Radio You Can Depend On, Newstalk 1400 KFRU.

--- Henry Lane ---

Welcome back to the Don Stamper show. I'm Greg Rennier and Don has graciously allowed me to sit in this evening.

Our topic tonight is education. We've spent the last 30 minutes or so discussing large-school issues like vouchers and charter schools, but I'd like to pull back for the remainder of the show and focus on local issues, specifically the Columbia School District, although we'd welcome calls and comments from those who live outside the Columbia School District.

To join in on the discussion or to offer your viewpoints, give us a call at...
In studio this evening is Henry Lane. Henry, how you doing this evening?

Questions - open
• Before we delve into the topic of education, however, I was wondering how your health was holding up and if you still planned on stoking the fires around town.

• I described you at the end of the last segment as the 'most polarizing figure' in Columbia. Why do you think that is? Why do some people love you and others just wished you'd go away?

• What's the biggest issues facing the Columbia School District today?

• I hope that you were able to hear my conversation in the first half of the show with Marcus Winters. He made a good case for vouchers and charter schools. Would you support these systems here in Columbia? Why / why not?

Questions - update on his issues
• Tribune editorial -- suggested that people don't understand the direction that the district is heading and how low taxes might benefit the community. Why don't you talk a little about that?

• How's your lawsuit against the district going? First explain it for those that might not be aware of the issue.

• MAP scores
- what is up with this? What's the situation?
- How can the district fix this?
- why are so many people opposed to having special reading programs, math programs, etc... but mainlining the trouble makers -- everyone is losing, especially the trouble makers who are not seeing any consequences to their negative behavior
- what do you think of how the district is handling this so far? will the task force result in any substantial benefit?

Questions - West Blvd PTA
• I am sure that you have followed the flap at the West Blvd Elementary School where the PTA treasurer, Marta Holmes, sent out a condemning letter to parents about their lack of involvement. The PTA or the school didn't support her. What's your take on this situation?
- me - she hit the nail on the head -- lack of parental involvement is ruining our schools and ignorning the issue doesn't solve the problem
- she should be commended and hired by the school district
- I thought it was funny, though, that even though they took away the treasurer's position, she's still the volunteer coordinator -- I guess no one else wanted to step up to the plate

Questions - other
• Are you doing to run again? How would the district be different if you were on the board?

• Have you thought of running for other positions? Why the passion for education?

• What can we do to raise attendance levels?

• A Denver education consultant suggested that we need $913MM more in MO to adequately fund education. Have you reviewed this study? If so, what's your take?

Goodbye

Henry, it's been great having you on the show. Why don't you tell the listening audience where they can find out more about your thoughts and issues.
We're going to take our last break and then I'll be back with some closing comments. This is Newstalk 1400 KFRU.

--- Close ---

I would like to thank our guests Marcus Winters and Henry Lane.
If you want to find out more about each of them, visit their websites at www.miedresearchoffice.org and www.henrylane.com

As I said at the top of the show, I am convinced that most educators care more about saving their system than educating our children. We used to have the best educational system in the world until the unions and government starting exercising excessive control in the 60s. We should be outraged, but for some reason we're not. The next time your educator tells you that vouchers or choice will harm the children, ask for specifics. Ask if children are better educated today than 40 years ago. Ask for proof. Ask them what harm would be done by having parents more involved. And by all means, educate yourself so you can understand the issues. The Manhattan Institute -- a research-based organization -- is a great place to start.

Henry, we have a few seconds, any last comments?

I hope that you enjoyed the show. My regular Tuesday evening routine ends tonight, but I'll be back periodically when needed to stroke the flames of liberty.

Don will be back tomorrow evening and I'm sure he would appreciate you listening in. After the news is my favorite consumer nerd Clark Howard.

It means a lot to me that you would spend part of your evening with me. Take care of yourself, do a good deed each day, and stay cool. You've been listening to Radio You Can Depend On, Newstalk 1400 KFRU.

--- 2003_10_14_MichaelBadnarikJudgeJimGray ---

--- Open ---

Good evening and welcome to the Don Stamper Show. This is Greg Rennier and I'll once again be your Tuesday night fill-in for Mr. Stamper.
We have a full show this evening so I'll get right to it. I encourage you to call in as this is really your show. I'm only here to host the party and make sure everyone has a good time. If you want to speak with the guests or offer an opinion, give us a call at ....

We'll have two guests tonight. Both will be making appearances in Missouri this weekend. Both are articulate, and consistent with the theme of my shows, both will have informed opinions that might go slightly against the grain, but are logical and well-thought out.

In the second half of the show, we're going to speak with Judge Jim Gray of Orange County California. He's an advocate of repealing the drug laws, he is considering a run for the US Senate in California, and he was founder of the Drug Court systems that we are implementing here in Columbia. He's appearing in St. Louis this weekend to discuss a number of topics.

Right now, however, we are going to speak with Michael Badnarik. Michael will be in town this weekend to teach a class called an Introduction to the Constitution. He is also a candidate for the Libertarian's presidential nomination, so there are lots to talk about.
Michael, welcome to the show.

--- Badnarik ---

Questions
• Let's start out talking about the class you want to teach. Tell us a little bit about that.
- where, when, who's sponsoring, cost, how to sign up, content
• what can someone expect to learn? What type of issues or viewpoints will you express that others might not, or, are there major points or issues that you will stress?
• You also want to become the Libertarian presidential candidate. Tell the audience why you're the best candidate.
• What would you do if you became president? How would government change? What could we expect?
• On your website and much of your campaign literature, you use the phrase "Help Us Light Fires". What does that mean?
• I think that people have a difficult time distinguishing between a right and a privilege. I know you have some thoughts on this and what it means to clearly understand the difference.
• There's several topical issues I was wondering if you could address. I'll just lay out the topic and you let the audience know your stance:
- Schools and education -- a big topic here in a University town, but talk about both primary, secondary, and higher education; what would you do to improve this declining situation?
- the 2nd amendment -- we just passed law that allows concealed weapons -- in fact it withstood a governor's veto, only to be struck down by a St. Louis judge -- how do you feel about gun control in general?
- the war on Iraq -- a hot issue here in Columbia with many advocates on each side
- how would you approach the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?
what would you do to stimulate the economy?
• if time permits: I also noticed that you're something of a daredevil or risk-taker; we don't you tell us about some of your hobbies; do these provide any insights into your character?

Michael, thanks for your time and good luck on the campaign trail. Why don't you tell us again how we can sign up for your Constitution class this week and how we can find out more about your presidential campaign.

After the break we're going to speak with Judge Jim Gray regarding his thoughts and views on the War on Drugs and the effectiveness of Drug Courts. You're listening to Newstalk 1400 KFRU.

--- Gray ---

We're going to shift our focus in this last half of the show and speak with Judge Jim Gray. Judge Gray is currently a Judge of the Superior Court in Orange County California. Before he was a trial judge, he served in many different capacities including federal prosecutor, criminal defense attorney for the Navy, and spent time in the Peace Corps. He was also received commendations for developing what could have been the country's first Drug Court. He is the author of Why Our Drug Laws Have Failed and What We Can Do About It -- A Judicial Indictment on the War on Drugs. This book has received endorsements from Walter Cronkite, Milton Friedman, the governor of New Mexico and many others. Whew! The list of achievements and accolades goes on and on...they're simply too numerous to list without using up the rest of the show.

Judge Gray, welcome to the show.

Questions - National
• Am I correct that you'll be in St. Louis this weekend? Where, when, why, how can we learn more or how can someone attend
• The title of your book pretty much says it all -- you're against the War on Drugs. Why? Tell us how you came to this conclusion. What evidence do you have?
• Why do we continue with a policy that so many people acknowledge has failed?
• What do you advocate as public policy?
• What's our policy now and how could things be different?
- prison system
- local communities
- foreign countries
• In your book you talk about the Prison-Industrial Complex. Explain what you mean by that.
• You also talk about the government's 'Don't Discuss It' policy. What is that and how is it harmful?
• A particular pet peeve of mine is how the Drug War is used to erode the Bill of Rights. Do you agree? Can you give us some examples.
• What's the best strategy -- stop drugs at the source (foreign), stop them at the border and criminally punish users (domestic), or treat users (humanistic)?
• Are we going to make headway on this issue? Is there any hope? When?

We're going to take a break, but when we come back, I'm going to ask Judge Gray about some local drug issues here in Columbia and Boone County. If you want to get in on the discussion, call....

You're listening to Newstalk 1400 KFRU.

Questions - local
• Columbia recently proposed a medical marijuana law that was struck down at the polls. What's your feeling about these? How do you feel about how the Supreme Court has handled this issue?
• Let's talk about Drug Courts. Our judicial system has recently instituted these here locally. I must admit I don't know a lot about them, but my gut tells me they're not necessary. What do you think? What benefits do they offer? What has been their track record?

Questions - California
• I know that you're considering a run for the US Senate in California. Why?
• As a US Senator, you would also impact policy here in Missouri. What would be your platform?

Judge Gray, that's all the time we have for this evening. I'd like to thank you for coming on the show and discussing your views this evening. Before I let you go however, why don't we let the audience know where they can learn more about:
- your book
- your thoughts & campaign
- your appearance this weekend

Thank you and I wish you all the luck in your potential campaign.
I'll have a wrap-up after this short break. You're listening to Newstalk 1400 KFRU.

--- Close ---

I would like to thank our guests Michael Badnarik and Judge Jim Gray.
If you want to find out more about each, visit their websites at www.badnarik.org and www.judgejimgray.com.

And don't forget that Michael will be in town this Saturday to teach a course called Introduction to the Constitution. It's in Room 3 of Hulston Hall on the MU Campus. It starts at 10am and goes until 7pm. The cost if $50 per person.

I hope that you enjoyed the show. I'll be back next Tuesday to talk about education. We'll start out our discussion with Jay Greene with the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research, a nationally recognized expert who has research MAP-type testing, school vouchers, and a host of other educational issues. We'll then bring in a guest to talk about issues on the local education scene.

Don will be back tomorrow evening and I'm sure he would appreciate you listening in. After the news is Clark Howard.

It means a lot to me that you would spend part of your evening with me. Take care of yourself, do a good deed each day, and stay cool. You've been listening to Radio You Can Depend On, Newstalk 1400 KFRU.

Here are my show notes from 10.07.03 regarding FairTax.org. I have a question for other authors on this system -- is there a way to import a html file that would preserve the formatting. I use a lot of bullet points and don't have the time to properly indent them when I post.

I hope you enjoy these notes:
===========
--- Open ---

Good evening and welcome to the Don Stamper Show. I'm Greg Rennier, the regular Tuesday night sub for Don Stamper. I apologize for leaving you hanging last week at the end of show. I mistakenly said we'd be back after the break, but I was wrong. Scott is my capable and learned producer, and I mis-interpreted his hand signals. I thought we were going into a break and coming back in a few minutes for a final wrap-up, but it was the end of the show. I'm sorry if I confused you. I will try to make sure it doesn't happen again. But technically I was correct -- I am back, but it was a 167-hour break rather than a few minutes.

OK, let's move on. We have a full and informative show tonight. Later in the show we're going to talk to two representatives from Americans for Fair Taxation.

But before we do, we're going to speak briefly with last week's guest, Doug Hillman of the Free State Project.

--- Free State Project ---

Doug, welcome to the show again.
• For our new listeners, why don't you briefly explain the Free State Project.
• Now you made a big announcement last week. Why don't you tell us about it?
• How did [STATE] react?
• OK, what happens now?
• You said last week that the type of activities or events that would occur would differ depending on the state. Now that we know it's N.H., can you make any specific predictions about what the early agendas might be? (realizing that it depends on individual contribution)
• After you left the air last week, I got a particularly nasty call from a gentleman -- probably a Democrat who worships at the feet of the diversity altar -- suggest that Columbia would be a better place without me and others who believe in limited government. Have you gotten this type of reaction from others? The love-it-or-leave-it sort of attitude? How has the press reacted? Favorable?

Why don't you tell us how to learn more?

Thank you

===== IF TIME -- AN AFTER-INTERVIEW COMMENT ======
A caller last week wanted an example of utopian societies that have succeeded. First, the Free State Project does not try to create a utopian society; rather they just believe in limited government. That philosophy does not impose a way of life, or a set of rules, but rather allows many different models to emerge. Besides, there are great examples of people changing their lives dramatically in a similar manner -- pilgrims, Mormons, Vermont, and to some degree, Columbia MO.

--- Genie Hayes ---

We're going to spend the rest of the show talking about an exciting new proposal to simplify the federal tax code through a national sales tax. There have been many such proposals, but the Americans for Fair Tax have devised the simplistic and fairest system I've ever heard. I hope you'll agree.

We're going to be speaking first with Genie Hayes, the Communications Director about their proposal in general, then after the half hour we'll discuss the implications for Missouri and Columbia with Bill Phelps, former MO LT GOV and the State Director for the group.

Let's get to it, but first, if you want to join in on the discussion, give us a call at..........

Genie, how are you this evening?

Questions:
• Genie, why don't you tell us a little bit about Americans for Fair Taxation? how long, who started, grass roots, number of members, number of volunteers
• What is it your group wants to achieve? How will you move this forward? Legislation, referendums???
• Tell me about the specifics of this bill? What would it do...how would it change the way we pay taxes? How will this impact my paycheck? the IRS?? prices? used goods? services? compliance costs?
• Tell me about the benefits of this type of tax system. Convince me that we need to change.
• OK, now let's talk about the impact on specific groups. Tell me how this system will impact the ...:
• poor
• seniors
• charitable giving
• education
• healthcare
• homeowners
• Will the government take in more or less money? What impact will this have on government income?
• Explain why spending is more consistent than income?
• It seems to me that this proposal will limit government growth because over taxation will decrease consumption. Is that true? Will this force the govt to find a 'natural' level of taxation that balances revenues & growth?

Genie, I appreciate you coming on this evening. Where can our listeners find out more? ... Thanks.

Up next is Bill Phelps who is the State Director for Americans for Fair Taxation.
We'll further explore this concept and discuss it's impact on Missouri in general and Central Missouri in particular.

But before we turn this conversation over to Bill, we need to pay some bills.
You're listening to Radio You Can Depend On, Newstalk 1400 KFRU.

--- Bill Phelps ---

I want to introduce Bill Phelps, former MO LT GOV and the State Director for Americans for Fair Taxation. We're going to finish out the hour talking with Bill about his group's efforts in Missouri and the potential impact on Central Missouri.
If you'd like to ask Bill a question or have a viewpoint you'd like to express, give us a call at ........

Bill, welcome to the show.

We've been speaking with Genie Phelps about your taxation proposal. But now we'd like to focus on Missouri.

• Questions:
• Why don't you tell us about your role as the State Director for this group? what do you do, how do you organize, is this grass roots
• How large is the group in Missouri? What type of people are getting on board?
• How has this been accepted in Central Missouri? I noticed that you have regional directors and coordinators in most areas of the state, but there's a big hole in Columbia.
• Is Missouri a key state for your organization? bellweather, low tax, rural
• Let's talk about our legislators in the U.S. Senate and House of Representatives. Who is supporting this in Missouri? Why or why not?
• Any support or resistance on the state level?
• discuss the potential impact on:
• university
• Jeff City
• farming & agriculture
• seniors/Social Security
• charitable giving -- e.g., MO Food Bank
• small business -- is this an additional burden (use me as an example)
• How will this impact state taxation? Since revenues have supposedly been a problem -- will groups come back and dog this like they have with Hancock? Is it compatible with Hancock?
• would you like to see MO adopt a similar strategy?
• How can the listening audience learn more or help out?

Bill, I appreciate you coming on this evening. Where can our listeners find out more? ... I wish you and your group all the success in the world. Thanks.

--- Close ---

I would like to thank our guests from the Americans for Fair Tax organization. If you want to find out more about their efforts, or if you'd like to volunteer, visit their website at www.fairtax.org. Once again, that's www.fairtax.org. I'm excited about this proposal -- it's fair and simple, plus allows you to have your full paycheck and prevents the problem with hidden taxation that legislators love so much. Plus it will naturally apply a brake to the belief among many legislators that they money you earn is theirs, and they'll decide how much they will allow you to keep.

Well, it's time to go. I'll be back next Tuesday with two guests: Michael Badnarik will be on the show to talk about his presidential campaign on the Libertarian ticket and Judge Jim Gray will discuss the harmful effects of the government's so-call War on Drugs. Both of these gentlemen will be in Missouri the weekend after next, so it will be a timely discussion.

Don will be here tomorrow evening so be sure to listen. Clark Howard, the consumer nerd, is up after the news.

Thanks for spending some of your evening with me. Take care of yourself, do a good deed each day, and stay cool. You've been listening to Radio You Can Depend On, Newstalk 1400 KFRU.

Hi. I promised Lisa that I would post something, so I thought you might want to see the show notes that I use for KFRU. I noticed some formatting problems that I'll try to fix in future posts, but for now, please enjoy and send me any comments.

=== Show Notes ===

--- 2003_09_30_Conceal Weapons and Free State Project ---

--- Open ---

Good evening and welcome to the Don Stamper Show. I'm Greg Rennier, the regular Tuesday night sub for Don Stamper.

This is the first night that I won't be pre-empted by Cardinal baseball, but with every dark cloud comes a silver lining -- I now have a chance to spend an hour a week with you guys. I promise that I'll try no to preach to you too often, but I sometimes get upset and I just can't help myself. Instead, my goal is to bring you guests each week that are better than I at articulating the benefits of limited government and personal responsibility.

Tonight, I am going to finish up my thoughts from last week's show on Missouri's new conceal and carry law. Then we'll have a guest from the Free State Project to fill up the rest of the hour.

Before I rant a little about the concealed-weapon law, though, I want to take the opportunity to thank Don Stamper and Amy Miller for giving me this opportunity to come to you each week with a message of liberty. Although Don and I don't agree on many political issues, it takes a big man to allow different views. Don is that type of person and I am grateful. So, let me send out a big THANK YOU to Don.

--- Concealed Weapons Guns ---

As you know by now, law-abiding Missourians who fulfill some strigent requirements are allowed to carry a concealed weapon starting October 11. I'm all for this new law as it has proven to reduce crime and increase your personal safety. Rather than re-hash some of these arguments that you probably heard elsewhere, I want to raise some issues that have gotten less attention.

First, many businesses and establishments are in a panic mood and will post 'No Weapons' signs, which are perfectly within their rights. However, I wouldn't advise this. Why? When the concealed-weapon law was passed in Florida, many businesses posted signs prohibiting concealed weapons thinking they would have fewer problems. Instead, they found that their insurance rates went up because businesses that prohibited guns were robbed more often than those that allowed responsible, law-abiding citizens to carry guns. There's been a lot of stories about stupid criminals, but when it comes to concealed weapons, they're usually pretty smart. They don't rob places where they don't have the upper hand. Instead, they prefer to prey on businesses where they are the only one packing a gun. Let's face it, criminals want the easy target and that will be the places that prohibit guns, now more than ever. This law will concentrate criminals in those establishments that prohibit guns. So if you're a businessman or woman and this is going to be your policy, get ready for the robberies because the placard you're going to put outside might as well be 'rob me' rather than 'no guns allowed'.

Another issue that isn't getting a lot of play is responsibility. I for one am peeved that most people equate the responsible gun owner with a criminal. For instance, recent comments from Capt McCrary of the columbia Police Department and Sheriff Boehm suggested that they expected trouble from those with concealed-weapon permits

• McCrary = "We have enough problems with people who are illegally carrying. Now we have to deal with people who are legally carrying."
• Boehm = "How can I separate the concealed weapon from you?"

In both cases, they made the assumption that there is no difference between the legal and illegal carrier, and let me tell you there is. Legal carriers are law-abiding, responsible citizens who have gone through extensive training and registered with the local law enforcement. Criminals are scum who prey on the helpless; concealed-weapons carriers are model citizens who have a high degree of concern for others. Quite frankly, it's an insult for police officers to suggest otherwise, especially since there have been no problems in the other 40 states that allow conceal and carry.

The last two points I'd like to make on this topic I credit to Mike Ferguson, an articulate libertarian who resides in the Kansas City area. Mike pointed out in a recent Internet article that the conceal and carry laws recognize the government's ability to regulate Constitutionally-guaranteed freedoms, freedoms they specifically have no authority to regulate. The 2nd Amendment of the Bill of Rights states "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed". There's a lot of disagreement over what the term 'militia' means, but based on the writings of the founding fathers, and the fact that the entire Bill of Rights was written to preserve individual rights, it is clear that individuals have the right to own and carry arms. This right is something I don't have to ask permission for and something no one, including the government, has the right to take away, no matter what the majority thinks. Even though the conceal and carry law is a triumph in some ways, it is a compromise -- no a trampling -- of my Second Amendment rights. Worse yet, the government has convinced most people that our 2nd amendment rights are a priviledge. The media has been a willing accomplice as well as the educational system which the government controls. We should be outraged, but most of us are not.

The second point that Mike made is that the conceal and carry law clearly points out the differences between the Libertarians, Democrats, and Republicans. Democrats cry out against the conceal & carry law because of concerns over 'public safety', thinking only of groups. Libertarians are more concerned about 'personal safety'. This is a key difference -- Democracts define you as part of a group and all your rights eminate from your group status. You are a pawn to them. Libertarians are concerned about individuals -- the rights of each person matters.

What about Republicans? Well, they've puffed out their chests and proclaimed that they have preserved freedom with this new law. But as I already talked about, this simply isn't true. They have no problem requiring citizens to pay $100 for their 2nd Amendment rights, or enrolling you into a statewide database, or denying this right to adults between the ages of 18 and 23. A Libertarian would never step all over your rights like this. A Republican does without a second thought and then tries to convince you that they did a great thing.

Well, I hope that I've given you a new perspective without being too preachy. When we come back, we're going to speak with Doug Hillman of the Free State Project. The Free State Project is the best chance we have to demonstrate the power of the prinicples of limited government and personal responsbility. If you haven't heard about it, or even if you have, stick around. It should be an educational experience.

You're listening to Radio You Can Depend On, Newstalk 1400 KFRU. We'll be right back after we put some meat on the table.

--- Free State Project ---

Welcome back. This is Greg Rennier sitting in for Don Stamper as I do on every Tuesday evening. We're going to spend the remainder of the show speaking with Doug Hillman discussing the Free State Project. A friend of mine aptly compared the Free State Project to the pilgrims, as they packed up everything to move to a new land to escape religious and economic persecution. This project has the potential to change government in this country forever. Rather than have me babble on about it, let's bring in Doug.

Doug, how are you doing this evening?

Questions:
• Overview
• Describe the Free State Project. What's it all about?
• Who came up with this idea? Who administers it? Who are the leaders?
• Are you a political organization?
• What's the goal? Succession?
• How do you respond to criticism that you want to 'take over' a state?
• Your motto is "Liberty in our Lifetime" -- how do you define liberty? many listeners will say we are free -- why do you think otherwise?
GIVE OUT THE PHONE NUMBERS
• The Process
• Let's talk about the numbers. How many people do you need, where are you at right now? When do you expect to reach your goals? Now don't bore us, but give us a sense of what you're looking at.
• This sounds ambitious. How well have you been doing so far? What stage are you at?
• Who has been signing up? Describe these people to the audience. Are there commonalities in thought, political affiliation, demographics??? Are they all libertarians? Is there anyone you don't want?
• what if I can't commit now, but I want to help?
• why not do this on smaller scale -- like a city or county?
• Where?
• what are the states you are considering and why? what criteria put a state on the list?
• I've read in an Associated Press article last week that New Hampshire and Wyoming are the leading candidates -- why?
• NH = low dependence on federal money, no sales tax, Live Free or Die Motto, and constitution allows for succession vs. lack of support for Libertarian presidential candidates and relatively expensive political campaigns
• Wyoming = low population, low property taxes, lack of statewide land-use planning laws, and lack of politically-correct laws like hate crimes
• Can it work?
• is 20,000 enough? why 20,000??
• can you organize 20,000 people? I mean their libertarian in nature and that's often a problem
• What will you do once you get there?
• you decide on a state and have the numbers and people move -- what's next -- what's on your agenda and how will you proceed?
• what do you expect of these activists???
• hold property?
• vote?
• hold office?
• etc...
• will you succeed from the Union? is that the goal?
• Obstacles
• do you expect any problems with local, state or federal governments? they must be concerned or downright frightened about this idea, especially the feds
• will the locals see this as antagonistic?
• will people back out? what makes you think they'll follow through on their commitments?
• What's next?
• when will the state be picked?
• what does everyone do next?
• what if I can't commit right now? can I still contribute? can I move later? will I be seen as a lesser contributor?
• Why will this succeed where other ventures have failed? What's the key driver of success?
Doug will be back next week to discuss the vote and where this goes next.

--- Close ---

I don't know about you, but the Free State Project sounds like the best idea I've heard in a long time to restore liberty and limited government. I equate it to the movements by the pilgrims, the Mormons, and those liberal, back-to-soil types who flocked to Vermont about 30 years ago. This is not something to fear, but to celebrate. Here's a group of people seeking to build their utopia WITHOUT government coercion. It doesn't get any more American than that.
I wish them all the luck in the world and expect to join them once my children are out of the house. In the interim, I will help them anyway I can.

If you want to find out more, please visit their website at www.freestateproject.org. If I have to spell it out for you, they probably don't want you. Once again, it's www.freestateproject.org.

Well, it's time to go. I'll be back next Tuesday and we'll talk to Doug again in the first segment to find out the results of the voting and discuss what happens next.

Don will be here tomorrow evening so be sure to listen. Clark Howard, the consumer nerd, is up after the news.

Thanks for spending some of your evening with me. Take care of yourself, do a good deed each day, and stay cool. You've been listening to Radio You Can Depend On, Newstalk 1400 KFRU.

--- Filler ---

One last point about the conceal and carry laws then I promise I'll stay away from this topic.

Last week a caller tried to make the point that the government should require gun permit holders to have liability insurance, much like car insurance. Well, I'm sure he thought this was just a crafty way to take away someone's rights.

But he missed the point on a couple levels:

• first, driving a car is a priviledge while own and carrying guns is a right -- the government shouldn't put any roadblocks in the way of rights
• second, you only carry insurance for situations which have at least some likelihood of occuring, like car wrecks, or death, or disability; with conceal & carry and the type of people who take the time to learn the rules, the insurance isn't needed because the neglect doesn't exist; tell me one story of a conceal & carry holder using his or her gun in a negligent manner.....it just doesn't exist, thus, why have the added burden of insurance.....why not hunting insurance, or pool insurance, or bucket insurance, or lawnmower insurance.....